Green Coffee Beans for weight loss: Dr. Oz loves it, but where’s the evidence?

Green Coffee Beans - Fake Cures For Real Conditions

I can’t keep up with Dr. Oz. Just when I thought the latest weight loss miracle was raspberry ketone, along comes another panacea promising results with no effort. This time, it’s green coffee beans.

Everyone knows Dr. Oz, now. Formerly a guest on Oprah, he’s got his own show which he’s built into what’s probably the biggest platform for health pseudoscience and medical quackery on daytime television. In addition to promoting homeopathy, he’s hosted supplement marketer Joe Mercola several times to promote unproven supplements. He has been called out before for promoting ridiculous diet plans, and giving bad advice to diabetics. And don’t forget his failed attempt to actually demonstrate some science on his show, when he tested apple juice for arsenic which prompted a letter from the FDA about his shoddy methodology. His extensive track record of terrible health advice is your caution not to accept anything he suggests at face value. Yet it continues to frustrate me that pharmacies see his endorsements as a boon for sales of supplements, rather than what they really are  – an obstacle to science-based health care. So when the sign in front of my local pharmacy started advertising “Green coffee beans – as seen on Dr. Oz”, I tracked down the clip in question. The last time I saw Dr. Oz in action when when he had Steven Novella from the Science-Based Medicine blog as a guest, where there was actually a exchange (albeit brief) about the scientific evidence for alternative medicine. Replace Dr. Novella with a naturopath, and you get this:

Yes, Oz did use the terms “magic”, “staggering”, “unprecedented”, “cure” and “miracle pill”. And clearly the naturopath, Lindsay Duncan, is enamored with this product. But Dr. Oz is a health professional – he’s the Vice-Chair of the Department of Surgery at Columbia University. He’d be a bit skeptical, right? This exchange at the end, made me shake my head – Dr. Oz really has crossed the woobicon:

Now I always pride myself at having the smartest TV audience out there. So I’m hoping that some of you are skeptical about this. I was certainly skeptical about it. Am I speaking for a couple of you, anyway? It does seem a little too good to be true.

So what did Dr. Oz do – issue cautions about believing in miracle cure-alls? No. He created some anecdotes:

So I gave the supplements to two viewers 5 days ago. I gave all the information I could find on this product to our medical unit, they did diligent work, but we still wanted to see what would happen in real life.

One viewer dropped 2 pounds in 5 days. The other viewer lost 6 pounds in 5 days. Convincing weight loss? It was persuasive to Dr. Oz.

So now I’m going to do what Dr. Oz, the producers of the show, and the naturopath Lindsay Duncan didn’t do — actually review the evidence.

The Evidence Check

There is some suggestion, but no convincing evidence, that coffee consumption or caffeine consumption may have a modest, effect on weight. This study examined unroasted or “green” coffee beans, and was published in the online journal Diabetes, Metabolic Syndrome and Obesity: Targets and Therapy. The journal says it’s a peer-reviewed publication, but with an average of 12 days from submission to editorial decision, which apparently includes peer review, it’s obvious the review is cursory at best. The study is entitled Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, linear dose, crossover study to evaluate the efficacy and safety of a green coffee bean extract in overweight subjects. The lead author, Joe A Vinson, is a chemist at the University of Scranton, Pennsylvania. None of the three authors appear to be clinicians or medical professionals, and none appear to have published obesity-related research before, according to PubMed. The study was funded by a supplement manufacturer, Applied Food Sciences.

To start — this is a very tiny trial — just 16 patients (8 males, 8 females) with an average age of 33 years. The research location was a hospital in Bangalore, India. How these patients were recruited was not disclosed. Normally a trial would list detailed inclusion and exclusion criteria, and then describe how many patients were considered and the reasons for exclusion. This paper just reports the final number, and there is no information provided on why 16 was felt to be the desireable number. The average weight was 76.6kg (168 lbs) and the average body mass index (BMI) was 28.22. While the BMI on an individual basis may not be informative, when looking at a population, a score between 25 and 30 is usually accepted to mean overweight, but not obese. The details on how these measurements were taken were not well described — which is surprising, given this is a this is a pretty important part of the study.

One of the tricks that researchers (both pharma and supplement) can play when conducting clinical trials is to change parameters of the trial, after the trial is started. Because of the risk of conflicts of interest, there has been a growing commitment to publish the trial parameters in advance of the trial at the website clinicaltrials.gov. Many medical journals will now refuse to publish a trial if it was not initially entered into a public registry. Not only does a registry ensure that negative results don’t disappear, it gives valuable information about the study, including its design, entry criteria, and who gave formal ethics approval for the study. This study was never registered at clinicaltrials.gov. And there’s no evidence provided that a research ethics board ever reviewed the protocol. I find it hard to believe that any investigator would undertake a clinical trial of an unproven supplement without obtaining prior ethics approval – but that seems to be the case.

Green coffee extract (the brand “GCA”) was used in the study. The authors note that GCA has a standardized content of 45.9% chlorogenic acid, which is purported to be the active ingredient. Now contrary to what was said on the Dr. Oz show, chlorogenic acid is also in roasted coffee in significant amounts, so you don’t need to take green coffee extract to get a good dose. Patients were “randomly” divided (method was not disclosed) into three groups: high dose, low dose, and placebo (which was described only as an “inactive substance”). No clear justification for how the dose was determined was provided. Each group stayed in one group for six weeks, had a washout of two weeks, then moved to the next group. Here’s where we run into more problems.

Double-blind in name only

Groups served as their own controls, and rotated betwen a “high dose”, a “low dose” and the placebo.

  • Group 1 (6 patients): High dose (x 6 weeks) — washout (x 2 weeks) — low dose (x 6 weeks)- washout (x 2 weeks) — placebo (x 6 weeks)
  • Group 2 (4 patients): Low dose — washout — placebo — washout — high dose
  • Group 3 (6 patients): Placebo — washout — high dose — washout — low dose

This doesn’t look that unreasonable. But the investigators noted the following:

The high-dose condition was 350 mg of GCA taken orally three times daily. The low-dose condition was 350 mg of GCA taken orally twice daily. The placebo condition consisted of a 350 mg inert capsule of an inactive substance taken orally three times daily.

Wait, what? The low dose arm was twice daily, while the placebo and the high dose arm were three times per day? That means that participants and investigators could determine which period was the “low dose” treatment. Knowing this, the other two treatment periods can be determined. So much for blinding and placebo control – we can’t credibly consider this to a blinded trial.

Based on the protocol, participants were evaluated at weeks 0, 6, 8, 14, 16, and 22. Diet was assessed by interviews and recall — a notoriously unreliable means of measuring actual calorie consumption. Weight, height, body fat, and blood pressure were calculated each visit. So here are the results for the three groups:

The table above is where Dr. Oz got his statistics of “17 lbs” of weight loss and 10% weight loss over 22 weeks. Oz also points out that there is no reported difference in dietary intake at the beginning and end of the trial – which is correct, but this is based only on patient recall. So is the weight loss due to the intervention? The group-by-group results are baffling ( click to enlarge):

Spot anything odd? Check out the HD/LD/PL group. This group lost about 4kg during the 6-week treatment period, but then lost an additional 4kg during the washout. There was relatively no change thereafter on the low dose. The PL/HD/LD group is even odder. In the first eight weeks of no active treatment (placebo & washout), the group lost about 8kg, but then didn’t budge on the high dose, and lost about 1kg on the low dose. Finally the LD/PL/HD group lost about 3kg on the low dose, was flat on the placebo, and then lost a smaller amount of weight on the high dose, which continued during the washout.

The results don’t add up. If the green coffee is having an actual effect, it should be occurring when the dose is given, not during the washout, or when a placebo is taken. There’s no clear sign of a supplement working. Rather, it could be that just by participating in the trial, people lost weight. How could this occur? Simply by paying closer attention to their diet – and possibly a bit of bias in the measurements. The breakdown of the results by arm are interesting (click to enlarge):

Here it’s a bit more revealing. The changes in each period are modest. Given the small sample size, the repeated measurements, and lack of proper blinding, the risk of bias is high.

Safe and Effective?

Both Oz and the authors state that the supplement was safe and free of side effects. But the trial doesn’t report any side effect information at all, other than stating “no side effects of using GCA”. Given no information seems to have been systematically collected, it’s not clear we can accept this statement. At a minimum, the authors should have reported side effects between the three treatment periods. Surprisingly, there was a non-significant increase in systolic and diastolic blood pressure, which the authors note appeared restricted to the placebo treatment component.

Did the weight loss last? The authors claim that 14 of 16 participants maintained their lowered weight after completing the study – this is doubtful, as no supplement or medication for obesity continues to work after you stop taking it.

The Red Flag Bogus Weight Loss Test

Diet products that promise rapid weigh loss with no exercise or calorie restriction are nothing new. The US Federal Trade Commission routinely takes on on diet supplement scams, and has a list of claims it calls “red flags” in advertisements for worthless products. Let’s put green coffee beans to that test:

  • Cause weight loss of two pounds or more a week for a month or more without dieting or exercise? Weight loss claim is just under 1lb/week with no dieting or exercise.
  • Cause substantial weight loss no matter what or how much the consumer eats? Investigators claim there was no difference in calorie type or intake, yet weight loss occurred.
  • Cause permanent weight loss (even when the consumer stops using product)? Investigators claimed weight loss sustained after trial ended.
  • Block the absorption of fat or calories to enable consumers to lose substantial weight? Actual mechanism (if any) is not clear. On the show it’s called a “fat blocker”.
  • Safely enable consumers to lose more than three pounds per week for more than four weeks? Claims 10% over 22 weeks.
  • Cause substantial weight loss for all users? Study claims all participants lost weight, lost fat, and reduced their BMI.
  • Cause substantial weight loss by wearing it on the body or rubbing it into the skin? — not applicable

The Dr. Oz segment raises several of the FTC’s red flags – if it was a paid commercial message, you could report it to the FTC.

Conclusion

Green coffee bean supplements have the characteristics of a bogus weight loss product. The supplement lacks plausibility, the only published clinical trial is tiny, and it appears to have have some serious methodological problems. Ignoring all of this, Dr. Oz has instead embraced it as the newest panacea for weight loss. Obesity is a real health issue, yet Dr. Oz seems quite content touting unproven products instead of providing credible, science-based information. In the real world, permanent weight loss is difficult, and there are no quick fixes. But not in the Land of Oz.

Reference

ResearchBlogging.org
Vinson JA, Burnham BR, & Nagendran MV (2012). Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, linear dose, crossover study to evaluate the efficacy and safety of a green coffee bean extract in overweight subjects. Diabetes, metabolic syndrome and obesity : targets and therapy, 5, 21-7 PMID: 22291473

45 thoughts on “Green Coffee Beans for weight loss: Dr. Oz loves it, but where’s the evidence?

  1. I work for a mass merchandiser that unfortunately sells more than a few useless weight loss products (ie. Hydroxycut). We just got the bad news that we’re going to start selling Raspberry Ketones :(
    In an environment such as my work environment I am brutally honest with my customers. I have little to no control over what hits our shelves but we do have pharmacies in town that advertise carrying these products AND the put one- sheet summaries of the “evidence” supporting their use. Sigh. Dr Oz had now become the bane of my existence…even more than third party billing.

  2. I was as Costco yesterday and was irked as usual by the vast array of supplements, including numerous weight loss products. Don’t people realize that if any of this stuff worked, no one would still be fat?

    • EXACTLY what I have been telling my clients. Everybody is always looking for the magic pill and if it was found, wouldn’t obesity NOT have been such an epidemic Dr Oz is such a moron, which makes me wonder how many morons there are that will hang on to his every word. What happened to these people’s braincells!!! Eating right and exercising is the ONLY way to lose fat. I feel like ripping this retard’s vocal cords out and feeding it to his spawn. Hope he doesn’t have children, because it will be a sin for him to carry his genes on.

      • Well I must say You Put Dr.Oz down and Yet you do not know he has children , show what kind of person you are , Now to get to the subject at hand I am one of those Morons as you speak of ,but the difference is I do have a mind of my own , I love the fact Dr.Oz bring on different things to get our brains thinking but if one themselfs can not realize each person is different then it is not Dr.Oz fault , Yes I agree Dr.Oz should of said This is what my studies are showing but I still think exercising even if you try out these pills , But truly if people do not realize this pill will just help a little and seriously once someone feels good and thinks they are losing weight they do start moving around .. Good Luck if anyone is trying this stuff as I am one who will and mine say take only 2 pills a day of 400mg , and others are say 800 mg twice daily then some say 3 pills of 400 mg , so before I start mine I will ask the company and also leave a message Dr.Oz to see which one it is .. Thank You for your time and for giving me more to think about ,, Name calling People though Is very Lame .. HAPPY BE-LATED NEW YEARS AND GOOD LUCK ..

      • Marinda, you are a very hateful person. First of all, ‘retard’ is sooo unacceptable! Honestly, what kind of clients do you have and who would trust a person who openly displays such violent behavior? What would ‘ripping out his vocal cords and feeding them to his spawn’ accomplish exactly? You need some education and some respect. The only ‘sin’ I see here, since you are clearly and God loving person, is stating such disgusting and distasteful things about a man who you have never met. I have never watched an episode of Dr. Oz, nor do I care to. I was simply looking at some information about green coffee bean. Think, think, think about comes out of your mouth.

      • Your a worse than a moron, you trust what you read here, tell me why does this team not study green coffee bean themselves ?, I will tell you, they get kick backs from big pharma, so many legitimate remedies, cures are Ignored because of $$ they are natural made by nature, if it cannot be patented, they dis credit it, example asprin was stolen from willow tree bark, yet I bet you have taken and trusted it. At least Dr Oz, and DR Mercola look to nature and natural foods to heal, while the big pharma spent millions to cover up natural cures, baking soda and apple cider WILL CURE many condition mainly acid reflux , I Know it cured me, yet the morons spend 60 million a year on Ineffective medication that only temp deal with the making your body not produce bile, News flash in 20 years this will cause 5 more problems from not digesting your food ? Give reseach in both, trust none equally, but natural should always be first

  3. Good article! Oz show started like something good but I agree, he became too commercial and he is losing credibility big time.

  4. I will be trying this out soon. I will let you know my results. Weight before and after. I already have an eating plan that I will be using, unchanged, during it.

    • About the eating plan: it’s just what I have already been doing. Sensible eating while avoiding bread and cow’s milk as much as possilble(I’m sensitive to wheat and milk). Will eat cheese occasionally. I’m actually tracking my progress, eating, exercise and losing weight(or not) on my website. dadsdelights.blogspot.com

      • Ian, if you are eating and exercising in a way that would cause you to lose weight anyway, how can you test the effectiveness of the product? The manufacturer claims taking green coffee bean causes weight loss without changing eating patterns or exercising. Keep us posted on your results.

  5. This is just a generic observation. I came upon this blog when I googled green coffee beans. Now I have no idea whether this product has any effect on anything. What I’m reading in general on this blog, however, is the kind of shrill denial of any concept of the world that falls outside of alopathic medicine. It’s sort of like the church punishing Galileo for claiming the earth was merely a planet that circles the sun.
    I spent this summer at the National Institutes of Health. Part of my time was with the Pain and Palliative Care department, an outstanding group of professionals who use all kinds of alternative medicine therapies to vastly improve the quality of life for patients undergoing pain-inducing treatments and for end of life care. What they do is neither snake oil administration nor is it based in pseudoscience.
    Healthy skepticism is always good. It should include skepticism about the bias of this blog.

    • Rosalind,

      You said: “What I’m reading in general on this blog, however, is the kind of shrill denial of any concept of the world that falls outside of alopathic medicine.”

      What shrill denial? I see post after post of considered analysis, referenced for your scrutiny, should you object to the conclusions being made. From what you wrote, they clearly challenge your current worldview.

      Alternative medicine makes claims that expressly fall outside what can be reasonably supported by available evidence, or makes claims that have yet to be properly tested. Skeptics acknowledge that these claims exist and we work to fairly evaluate them. No denial, just critical evaluation.

    • If there are errors, please point them out; and I’m happy to revise the article and the conclusions. I’ll even credit you for showing the errors.

      Otherwise you’re just handwaving away the conclusions because you don’t agree with what the evidence says.

  6. I agree, Dr. Oz is losing credibility with me as well. He seems willing to compromise ethics just to remain in TV without much regards to how it impacts viewers who follow his recommendations. Dr. Phil went down the same road. Like some medicines, money and fame can have a terrible side effect. It’s only a matter of time before they’re taken off the air.

  7. It would seem that Rosalind has reversed the roles of Galileo and the Catholic Church. It was Galileo who advocated for science and the Church which wanted to accept the proposition on blind faith. The followers of Dr. Oz seem to me to suffer from the same reliance on the “faith” of it all.

    • No, she didn’t mistakenly reverse the roles of Galileo and the Catholic church, she was essentially likening Scott to Galileo for calling it like it is, like a schoolyard “bully” that tells all the other kids that there’s no evidence for Santa (as if there’s something wrong with that); the Earth is just a planet orbiting the Sun, and in the same vein of charity, Dr. Oz and his weight loss supplements are just a crock of shit.

  8. I’m grateful to see someoned standing up to this crap handed out by someone who so many have placed their trust. My respect for Dr. Oz is none existant after his latest claim of having “checked out the Green Coffee Bean extract himself” and with a straight face recommended this clearly unproven suplement to his viewers. the problem that it’s useless in wght management is not the only problem..it’s that the safety of this product IS NOT proven..no side effects listed…so he’s willing to put his seal of approval on something that not only is useless but could potentially be dangerous. and one other thing….he’s a doctor..he’s advocating the use of some drug to control weight whilst not doing anything else to help yourself. something is just plain wrong about that. Proves once more that the term DR. is used far too loosely.

  9. It was difficult to find something credible rather than commerical regarding the green coffee bean claims. Thank you for providing the scientific data. I have always thought highly of Dr Oz and have become recently more skeptical with his flavor of the month supplements! Just another way to part us from our money. Too bad… once he losses his credibility it will be the end of him, another snake oil peddler.

  10. Read this blog a little late. I did trust Dr. Oz. That is why when I saw his endorsement of the Green coffee pill, it wasn’t hard to make a purchase. Fell for the sales pitch. I am very skeptical of anything too good to be true. However, I brushed off the doubt because a Dr. vouched for the effectiveness and how safe it is to use. Thank you for posting some facts regarding this product. Do you know if there are any side effects to using this product? God forbid it damages organs like some other weight loss products.

    • You go Nadene! Show these skeptics what’s possible!! The fact that you have lost more than 10 lbs and still loosing weight (not plateaued) is awesome. Don’t let these guys throw you off your game.

      For those of you that want to complain about something that is potentially dangerous and that has not been studied all that much go to You Tube and do a search on… GMO Ticking Time Bomb. This green coffee been issue won’t seem so significant.

  11. Truth be told, the vast majority of supplements are just bogus. Besides creatine and a few others, what really works isn’t sold in a supplement store (at least not on the shelves if you know what I mean). What works is pharma stuff (DNP, Clen, ECA stack) and as you can see the only road is through finding a diet that works for you.

  12. When Mehmet Oz had a show on raspberry ketones referring to them as “the No. 1 miracle in a bottle to burn your fat,” I excitedly purchased a bottle hoping to burn fat. Well, as many others have discovered, it doesn’t burn fat or do anything for that matter. He seems to put his name behind a new “weight loss product” every other week. Maybe he can afford to throw his money away since he’s a cardiologist, but I can’t. He has no credibility!

  13. I am glad I came on this study as I was about to buy some green coffee beans and was looking for the “right” kind. As far as Dr Oz goes, he is a cardiologist, and that is his field of knowledge. In everything else, he needs to produce a daily popular TV show. To his credit he tries to improve people’s health, but I am sure the research for shows is done by his staff, not even him. It is too much for one person. He needs a scientist researcher on his staff.

  14. I firmly believe that different things work for different people. I don’t think anything is a short cut to weight loss although I do believe there are certain supplements that can aid in this goal.

    Everyone has to take responsibility for their own choices and do their homework. If people don’t do that, well then you get what you pay for.

    • Richard, unfortunately, the scientific evidence does not support your claim. And obesity will be reduced by people taking in fewer calories—whether GMO foods or not— and/or exercising more.

      • Sometimes scientific evidence just doesn’t cut it, especially when measured up against one’s own body. If one can’t believe what their own body is telling them then they are lost to a school of thinking that teaches we should be told what to do and think on a daily basis by the “authorities”. That’s sad! I’m not saying that obesity is cancelled just by eliminating GMOs, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they are a main contributor and I would recommend to anyone, obese or not, to take them out of their diet and see what happens. Hopefully Art you read my blog before replying.

    • Richard,

      You are foolish to believe that objective scientific evidence “doesn’t cut it” when compared to the subjective judgement you make regarding how your body feels. You did not perform a “singular study”, you made an assumption and then jumped to a conclusion. Your assertions are laughable.

      I happened to read your blog before responding and couldn’t help myself but chuckle at your unfortunate ignorance, in particular with regard to the “purity” of the food in Portugal. It so happens that I am of Portuguese descent and spent many childhood summers on a farm about 30 minutes from where you apparently are. Farmers there use pesticides and lots of them. They rank 5th in the world on this list: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/agr_pes_use-agriculture-pesticide-use

      I also happen to have known many farmers that would bring their produce to markets, such as the ones you have visited, and know that they frequently lie about their agricultural practices (to foreigners) if it means moving some product. They might even sell produce from other farms at their stands as well. The next time you’re in one of these markets look around you, that farmer who is telling you he uses organic methods is competing with a dozen or more other farmers selling similar produce and you have no way of knowing if what they tell you is true.

      • Richard, have to agree with Diane: your anecdote and “sneaking suspicion” can only be confirmed by good scientific research. That does not exist for any claim that GMOs are a “main contributor” to obesity.

      • I have to say the foolish person is the one who doesn’t listen to his or her own body. Anyone who goes around thinking scientific evidence is supreme is only fooling themselves. I’d like to see proof that GMOs don’t contribute to obesity. Scientific evidence is only as good until the next study comes along that refutes the earlier conclusion. Science is not static and is constantly an area of discovery. Besides scientific evidence is often tainted by having certain interests funding studies. GMOs are a major business for certain companies that would do anything to have them be a major component of our food supply. And they’re trying! Maybe if this was a few decades ago the argument could possibly have been that DDT is okay. I’m sure scientific evidence back then would have given it a thumbs up. Maintain an open mind folks.

      • Richard,

        Okay, if one should always listen to their body (I would think that this is especially true when one is engaged in uncontrolled self-experimentation), tell me: how does a coincidence feel like?

      • I don’t think coincidences have any feelings per se, and isn’t all self-experimentation uncontrolled? After all, there is no control group being fed a placebo. Not even sure how that would be possible to feed a placebo food. So let me ask you dsousa, how do you explain the absence of a negative reaction to gluten in Portugal versus North America?

  15. I really think who believes in Dr.Oz should stand by him as I am sure he thinks People do have brains and it is not that he does not warn his watchers , I think very highly of Dr.Oz and I think People should give him a break . He has Not changed he is Just excided to see what is out there and to give the people options of different things and if people can not weigh out things themselves it is Not Dr.Oz fault , and By the way What I have seen of his children they are very Smart and very in Health themselves and I am impress with Dr.Oz he will not have second thoughts of trying what ever goes through his show .I think People should STOP Judging people and the world would be a better Place , If one has an opinion as everyone does it should be on the product it’s self and not the people who even might promote it . People Use your Brains .. Thank You for everyones Time ..

    • Jamilha-shar, please re-read the article: Dr. Oz is being indited on the basis of what he promotes or features on his show, not on who he is. The evidence does not support the things he promotes, thus he faces our ridicule and opprobrium.

  16. Dsousa, really know how to give a guy a hit on the kisser. My god, those words could piece through a human being’s organs, may be all the way through the intestine as well. But I seems to agree. These day farmers are much more interested in making a few extra bucks then promoting their brand.

    Well, may be we can’t blame them for doing it. As it is not an easy business to make a living with, as they are not getting much support from the government. When daily costs of living are on the rise, the people are struggling. Social standard is on decline.

  17. It is us who make the choice to be who we are today, sometime blaming other is not always a good idea. We are responsible for our own well being.

    Now getting back to green bean and weight loss. I agree with some of the points Dr OZ pointed out. In fact i love to watch him a few years ago. People who like to complaint about him are speaking out of observation but not hard evidence to support their arguments.

    The other day, my mother gave me a bad time for not keeping clean inside the living area. And then my lady forgot to pick my up from the gym session.
    Trying to loss some access weight to get my body mass and weigh index correct.

  18. You really need to watch the show again and listen closely to what he has said. You have contradicted yourself quite a few times. Clearly your studies are not accurate and you need to do quite a bit more research on the subject. Seriously, you’re an idiot.

    • “…listen closely…”
      What points did Scott miss?

      “.…contradicted yourself…”
      Where did Scott contradict himself?

      “…your studies are not accurate…”
      Which studies, and how are they inaccurate?

      If you are not prepared or able to include these details, your arguments are empty.

  19. were you able to actually work out how they claimed significance between the before and after weights. the changes are so small, the errors so wide, that there cant be. unless i have misinterpreted how they were calculated?

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